My philosophy about blogging and running this site comes down to two things. First, I won’t promote a product or method unless I personally have used it and love it. Second, I’m up-front and honest about what I find, what I think, what the evidence says and if I make a mistake or better information comes along, I’ll tell you. If you ask a question and I don’t know the answer, I won’t bluff it. I’ll tell you I don’t know and I’ll find the answer.
At one time, I fermented in mason jars and I supported it. However, having bad and inconsistent batches made me do some research. I looked into the history, science and the art of fermentation and my mind changed. I’m telling you about that now. Why? Because when you know better, you do better.
Recently I’ve seen criticisms about my lacto-fermentation series and some of them have contained logical fallacies and factual errors. The bottom line is that we all know in Traditional Foods that what you eat affects your health. It is a fallacy to believe that anything you do with a vegetable and a salt brine can’t have a negative effect on your health. Let’s look at some of those errors.
Mold
First up, let me state the obvious that many people don’t want to admit with mold and ferments. Mold REQUIRES oxygen to develop. If you have mold, you have air-flow which means you’re not producing a true lacto-ferment, you’re producing a salt-cured aerobic veggie ferment that, while it will have lactic acid bacteria in it, it isn’t going to be dominated by lactic acid bacteria (LAB). Oxygen is the enemy of LABs and it kills them off via competition from oxygen-loving bacteria.
Mold is NOT benign unless we’re taking about particular cheeses. I love a good Bleu, but that’s not what we’re discussing here. Mold puts tendrils all through your veggies before the fuzzy nasties show up on top. So even if you scrape off the mold on the top, it still leaves tendrils behind. Once the development begins, you can only kill mold by using heat.
How about we quote some common sense and very basic science from the USDA?
Molds have branches and roots that are like very thin threads. The roots may be difficult to see when the mold is growing on food and may be very deep in the food. Foods that are moldy may also have invisible bacteria growing along with the mold. Source
Yup, that’s right. Oxygen loving bacteria. Not anything that’s going to be beneficial to your gut or help your health. In fact, quite the opposite because they’re competing with the LABs you want and need and when oxygen is continually present, they’re out-competing the LABs.
Also…
When a food shows heavy mold growth, “root” threads have invaded it deeply. Source
Most people I know wouldn’t eat moldy meat, bread or veggies. Let’s be honest and admit that there’s nothing magical about a moldy, aerobic salt-cured veggie that makes it ok to consume parts of that mold. You’re trying to improve or maintain your gut health. Do you REALLY think that’s happening when you’re eating mold tendrils after scraping the fuzzies off the top?
I realize as traditional foodists, most of us have gone our own way, away from the processed world of manufactured food safety. However, let’s not be afraid to use common sense in the traditional foods world. Mold is NOT a good sign unless you’re talking cheese.
So let’s quit scooping mold off of those mason jar ferments and looking the other way. It isn’t beneficial to anyone’s health, especially not if you are trying to heal, have health problems or a possible chemical or biological sensitivity to mold. Mold is a sign of a ferment that’s getting oxygen and has an environment that will allow the oxygen-loving bacteria to survive. If you have a ferment that develops mold, my suggestion is to throw it out instead of scooping off the part of the mold that you can see and eating it.
NOTE: You aren’t likely to develop mold on kefirs or veggie ferments where you have to create a brine, such as garlic or carrots. The issue with mold is mostly with self-brining ferments such as sauerkraut and kimchi.
Vacuum Sealed Jars
Just because you can vacuum seal a jar doesn’t mean it’s airtight. A vacuum is a consistent inward pressure. CO2 production is a building, outward pressure that eventually ends. Yes, consistent inward pressure is going to hold the seal down, it’s basic science. But that has no bearing on how a seal is going to act in the time period between when you start a ferment when there’s no pressure and when the pressure begins, or what happens after the CO2 production phase is over and there’s no longer outward pressure on the lid. You’re comparing apples and oranges. Even though both scenarios involve pressure, jars and lids, they aren’t swappable.
Once again, we see that the Pickl-It and the Harsch crock are not competitors with the mason jar. The Pickl-It is on par with the Harsch crock. Other vessels that are not air-tight compete with each other but not with the airtight options.
Long-Term Results
Here’s another moment of honesty. If you do a ferment under anaerobic conditions, the results last a long, LONG time. If you don’t eat it all first, you can keep many veggies for years if you leave them in an air-tight (hermetic) container so the LABs stay alive.
When you use your mason jar, the contents can eventually go slimy, nasty, gray, moldy, stinky disgusting after a period of time, especially if you live in certain climates. In order for that slimy, nasty, gray, moldy, stinky, disgusting to happen, oxygen-loving bacteria had to be in your ferment and they had to be able to out-compete the LABs in order to have that effect. A ferment that is dominated by LABs doesn’t get a case of the nasties.
It shows that the ferment wasn’t anaerobic to begin with, that bad bacteria were able to live through the salt-curing process and then thrive OR you introduced bad bacteria after fermentation (fingers, dirty spoon) AND the container you stored the food in wasn’t airtight, so the nasties had the right environment to grow, killing off the LABs in the process. You see, there’s only so much space and resources to go around, and bacteria compete with each other for the food and space. When you ferment and store anaerobically, the LABs kill off all of the oxygen-loving bacteria and keep your veggies stable, crisp and with a consistent color with no slimy nasties anywhere to be found.
The bottom line is that if your ferment goes off, it wasn’t LAB dominated on the long downslide while you were still eating it. Yuck.
The Solution
What is the solution? Ferment in a truly anaerobic environment such as a Harsch crock or a Pickl-It. I own and use both. And check out the Related Posts below that give more information on what makes a ferment truly anaerobic.
Want to read more about fermentation, including articles with references and more information on vessel types? See our Related Posts for all of the articles in this series.
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So what’s the solution?
Nadine, the solution is to lacto-ferment and store in an airtight, truly hermetic vessel such as a Harsch crock or a Pickl-It and not a mason jar and definitely not an open air bowl or crock!! You can view the rest of this series here- https://www.onevibrantmama.com/category/foodmatters/lactofermentation/ I forgot to add the links to this post, I’ll go back and do that now.
KerryAnn Foster recently posted..Three Lies about Lactofermentation That Might Be Affecting Your Health
ew. I’ve never had any of that grossness happen to my ferments!
Melissa, next time you make a ferment, set aside some in a small jar and let it sit for a few months in the back of your fridge and see what happens. Most people who ferment in a mason jar eventually see that if they don’t consume it fast enough, it will go bad. I’ve heard people say they use mason jars so they can consume it fast enough before it goes bad, but IF it goes bad, that shows it was salt-cured and not lacto-fermented! LFs like sauerkraut should stay good for 18-24 months easy before beginning to get a little limp.
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I have had really good luck with the mason jar method. My ferments have lasted a really long time. I have a jar of jalapeno pickles from 2001…I have only used about half of them. I keep forgetting them in the downstairs fridge. But every time I use a few they always look, smell, taste, and feel great.
I haven’t had anything not work except cucumbers, which have gotten slimy for me. Someone suggested I need grape leaves in with them.
Everything else has definitely lasted a couple of years at least–I make them much more quickly than I use them up.
Thank you for this post, I didn’t know that you weren’t supposed to allow air. I haven’t done much lacto fermenting but my results when I did were pretty unsavory. Now I know why!!!
I’ll just keep buying Bubbies for now ;o) I do love my homemade kombucha though!
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I guess my big question is, what do you do while saving up to afford the proper equipment? Throw out what you’ve already made? Quit consuming the inferior product altogether? Or just do the best you can with what you have and replace it as soon as possible? What’s the practical answer here? I hate waste and am frugal by nature. But you’ve convinced me there’s a much better method. So now where is the reasonable balance? KWIM?
Sarah, that’s a question I have really struggled with in writing this series because I KNOW some people can’t afford the equipment. And people get mad when they find out they’ve been told false information that could possibly harm them. And I take flack no matter how I answer this question because I’ve already had it posed to me a number of times.
My answer depends on where you are at in your own journey. If you have gut problems, then you might want to consider letting those ferments sit in the back of your fridge for a while to see if your problems get better while not consuming any ferments. If there’s no change, then I’d say use them up and get a Pickl-It as soon as you can. That way, you can begin getting loads of the LABs into your gut.
I understand being on a tight budget- my husband is unemployed. It all goes back to the ‘do the best you can with what you have, where you are’ mantra.
KerryAnn Foster recently posted..Three Lies about Lactofermentation That Might Be Affecting Your Health
My kraut made in a mason jar according to NT, Full Moon Feast, and Wild Fermentation has lasted over a year in my fridge without any of that stuff happening.
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Yes, you can occasionally get lucky. When I used mason jars, I did occasionally have batches that turned out well and lasted.
KerryAnn Foster recently posted..Three Lies about Lactofermentation That Might Be Affecting Your Health
I use mason jars and do not get mold and my ferments last for a very long time (I tend to make way too much at once, and I am generally the only one who eats kraut), but I weigh my ferments down with a ziplock baggie full of brine on top of a cabbage leaf. Maybe even if not ideal, this has been enough to make me successful with my ferments. I have never had a batch go slimy. However, I am a gaps patient and so I will try the pickl-it as soon as I can afford it. I have had cucumber pickles and kvass and such grow mold, and I would love to try the pickl-it to sour young coconut water.
If you have gut problems, consider walking away from fermenting in a mason jar to see if you improve. I’ve met a number of GAPS patients whose guts would not improve until they got off of the mason jar ferments because the oxygen-loving bacteria encourage candida yeast and other bad bacteria in the gut. There are many posts on that topic coming later in the series as there is science and research to bear out their experience. In fact, I’ve even met some doctors who recommend against laky gut or GAPS patients from consuming ferments at all due to this problem.
Remember, ‘successful’ isn’t judged with your eyes or your tastebuds. It’s judged by the amounts and types of bacteria in your final product. If you want lactic acid bacteria, then anaerobic is your only option since oxygen kills LABs and if there is air exposure, either occasionally or a continuous, small stream during fermentation, your will not have a completely LAB lactoferment, you will have a salt-cured, preserved vegetable with oxygen-loving bacteria present instead.
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So how might this apply to kombucha? It is a different type of ferment but it is definitely aerobic. Or how about milk or water kefir? Or does this argument not apply since those are different types of probiotics?
Kate, kombucha requires oxygen. It is a different type of ferment and if you put it in a Pickl-It or a Harsch, you won’t get good results. Kefirs are lactic acid bacteria based and they do best in airtight environments, especially dairy kefir because it tends to oxidize easier than other ferments. I’ll be discussing the oxidation issue in a later post I have lined up for next month.
I do all my ferments in mason jars and have never had a problem. When I first did sauerkraut and fermented carrot-ginger we didn’t eat it all right away and it was there for months! No mold whatsoever! And I had even opened the carrot-ginger jar several times before I forgot about it and sat in the back of the fridge. And there was even one time when I forgot about a rice I had soaking in water and whey, it stayed in a little kitchen cabinet nook (not really visible) for over 6 months and it had NO mold on it. The only reason I didn’t use it was because I was afraid that the rice water had turn into Sake (the Japanese liquor!). It had it super strong seal, as with pressurized canning with the concaved lid, that I needed a sharp knife point to open it. When I opened it, it just smelled like fermented rice, that’s all.
One thing I learned from a Traditional cooking class was that cleanliness it’s an absolute MUST. No tap water! I use only distilled water that we remineralize with ConcenTrace. The jars are sanitized by pouring boiling distilled water (I don’t boil the jars), and whatever utensil is used to take portions out of the jar must be clean, without any water from the tap, nor towel-dried… as much cleanliness and sanitariness as when you’re dealing with a Kombucha mushroom to avoid any contamination. After washing, I rinse my hands and utensils with apple raw cider vinegar before inserting them into my ferments. No eating from the jar or digging the utensil back in after it has touch another food or the counter. I took this as gospel and I’m very religious about handling my ferments with care and it has worked well and I have been lacto-fermenting for over 2 years. It sounds cumbersome but it really isn’t that bad. It’s worth it!
Some regions of the country that are dryer don’t have as much of a problem with ferments going off as others. Even though I lived in the humid South, I did occasionally have some ferments turn out well and last for months and ferments where you pour brine in, like the carrots, aren’t as likely to mold as self-brining ferments like sauerkraut. However, by definition, you can’t get a true, high-lactic acid bacteria ferment in a mason jar.
However, whether or not a product molds isn’t the end-all and be-all of whether or not it’s a good product. The whole point of fermentation is to produce the lactic acid bacteria, and while products might not develop visible mold, what you see is NOT the main issue! The main issue is what probiotics are produced, and you can’t see that with your eyes. And lactic acid bacteria can’t grow and thrive where any oxygen is present.
KerryAnn Foster recently posted..Three Lies about Lactofermentation That Might Be Affecting Your Health
I make mine with Mason jars, or open crocks. The open crocks definitely lend themselves more to mush (which I toss; I never eat a product that is unappetizing in appearance or smell or consistency because that is an obvious sign something has gone wrong).
The Mason jars, so long as I weigh down with a cabbage leaf, have at times stayed in the (wine cooler = 51 degrees) fridge for years, NO MOLD. The product is crisp, tart, & usually bubbly, just like it should be, indicating to me that the LABs were at work. What do you think? (This is the rule, not the exception, in my experience.)
Our ancestors used open crocks, though, no? I’m not sure what to think about that in light of what you’ve said.
Mason jars obviously have air left in them for expansion; don’t the Pickl-It products? Is that the source of the “problematic” air, and if so, what is the solution?
Again, I look to what those who came before us did, rather than re-invent the wheel or “science” everything to death, or get all microbe-phobic.
Thanks for the excellent discussion.
BTW, I’m in the hot & humid South.
Ginger, crispy, tart and bubbly can be used to describe both salt-cured and lacto-fermented, so it’s not guaranteed that you have a lactic acid bacteria ferment with no oxygen-loving bacteria.
I can’t find evidence of open crock use until around the time canning came into use, so no, it isn’t traditional. Sally Fallon’s book Nourishing Traditions is the first mention of using a mason jar for fermenting I can find and she’s the one who invented using whey in a ferment in order to artificially drop the pH and put in some LABs, but whey is problematic on many levels. I’ll be posting a lot more about all of those topics that once I can complete my research. The more I read, the more I find.
The pickl-it does have room for expansion. If you start a ferment with the jar about 75% full, the bacteria can use up the oxygen left in the top of the jar and then turn to anaerobic fermentation, which is the only type of fermentation that produces lactic acid bacteria. LABs will not reproduce with oxygen present. Less than 75% full and the bacteria struggle with using up the oxygen before the LABs die off from competition.
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If they didn’t use open crocks, then what did they use?
I have a hard time believing there is no visible, smellable, or tastable difference between proper LAB ferments and salt-cures (I’ve never tasted a tart ham, for instance). What difference is there that can be detected without a microscopic examination?
Would you consider ferments such as yogurt or kombucha instead, or do you believe they have the same problems?
I avoid whey completely.
Ginger, many populations buried their ferments in sealed clay pots or in pits, making it anaerobic. Others used animals skins or sealed clay pots, both anaerobic. I’ll be posting more on this later in the series. I haven’t had time to get those posts done with the upcoming classes.
Look at traditional salt-curing for cabbage and you’ll see that the advice given should ring a bell for the advice you see given to people who are having problems getting their mason jar ferments to turn out. I’m still doing more research on this one and will be turning out some posts about it soon. I’m waiting on some books to arrive.
Kombucha needs oxygen, so it should never be fermented in a sealed vessel. It’s the only popular ferment that needs oxygen.
I haven’t done nearly as much research on dairy yet since we don’t use much of it at home, but I’ll get there. There is ample evidence if you look for it that the majority of LABs are killed off from commercial yogurt by the time you get them home because the plastic lets air in and some LABs are light sensitive.
Really, if you’re going to use mason jars, you shouldn’t avoid whey. There’s a big reason why Sally Fallon included it and called it an inoculant and NOT a starter. She knew people needed the probiotics but wouldn’t invest the big money in the Harsch crocks, so she came up with a method that might get some probiotics into people. Whey creates a partial ferment but includes some of the wrong labs since the types in dairy and on vegetables aren’t idential. But without whey you have a higher chance of creating a salt cure than a lactoferment, especially if you’re not careful with keeping the lid tight and being very clean. More on that coming up soon, too.
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No traditional populations had airtight containers, not for fermenting and not for long-term storage.
Erin, can you please site sources for that? Because I have plenty of research that says otherwise.
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I’m still a little confused what the solution here for those of us on really tight budget is. I’ve recently had to go on foodstamps and there is no extra money in my bugdet for a pickl-it or harsch anywhere in my relative future. And you’re saying even if you get a nice super bubbly product its still not lacto-fermented? I thought fermenting was supposed to be affordable, do it yourself kind of thing, now it seems to be going the way of needing expensive, specialized equipment.
I know this will seem like splitting hairs, but do you think these are myths more than lies? Lies carries the connotation that one knows what they are saying is false, and says it anyway. Do you really think the people fermenting in mason jars are spreading lies?
Everything you posted makes sense, and I would love to be able to have a nice Harsch or set of Pickl-its, but that’s just not a reality for many people, myself included. I hate to say it, but after reading this, I really feel pretty bummed. Where’s the middle here?
Jami, I understand those trials as we’ve been through two long stretches of unemployment since 2008. I’m not cold to that issue, and I have really struggled with what to tell those who can’t afford a Pickl-It. Just about every post I’ve done in this series, I’ve had at least one person ask what to do if they can’t afford one. The short answer is that I have no good answers for you yet.
Sally Fallon created mason jar fermenting because she wanted a solution that wasn’t as expensive as a Harsch crock, knowing that the expense of several hundred in order to ferment would put people off and make it seem unattainable. Her solution creates a partial ferment that may or may not contains LABs. I feel her heart was in the right place and she really was trying to come up with a good solution in an effort to help people, even if her science was a little off. Sally isn’t a scientist, she’s a journalist. It was her attempt to create a middle. Unfortunately, her middle can have some substantial draw-backs, especially if you’re trying to heal your gut or other health problems.
The best answer I can give you from the research I’ve done so far is that if you have any gut problems, I believe it’s better to stop mason jar fermentation all together for a few weeks to see if your gut improves. There are many people who have found out they’re harming themselves with mason jar ferments, but then the are able to progress once they start using truly anaerobic ferments.
Beyond that, I really need to do more reading and research before I feel like I have a full enough grasp to be able to render an informed opinion. I feel it only ethical as a blogger to wait and not render an opinion until I can consider myself fully informed on the issue. I’m waiting for some more books to come in and I’m half-way through a manual on fermentation and I’ve got some more folks to interview.
I’ll post more as I’m able to hash out more answers. I’m sorry I can’t give you an answer today.
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Me too, Jami. We’ve recently have had to obtain food stamps because DH could not find a job and our food budget per week has been around $30-$50 for a family of 3… so we are talking extremely, extremely tight… sardines and dried staple foods have been our savior seriously and I’ve become very creative with our food… But it’s been literally like a one meal a day ordeal most often before we got some help from food stamps for ONE month (case still pending). So the Harsch and Pickl-it will no be in our shopping list for quite a while. I have been “lacto-fermenting” (not sure what to call it now) for over 2 years and it’s worked well with Mason jars. I will keep doing that. I am paying close attention to my body and I’m not having any adverse reaction. On the contrary… the constant gas issues I had are gone since I began eating the ferments. Some ferment is better than no ferments. We also drink lots of kombucha. So if our bodies are fighting something extra coming from the ferments other than the good bacteria, then our guts are doing a good job fighting them off thus far. We can’t do it all at once, but we do what we can, as much as possible. Right now, Mason jar fermenting is all we can do for ourselves right now, and it’s better than a stale, cushy carrot sitting in the bottom fridge drawer.
Does this apply to milk kefir?
MC, it applies to any ferment that is lactic acid dominated, so that would apply to kefirs, vegetable and fruit ferments. It would NOT apply to kombucha, since KT needs oxygen to thrive.
KerryAnn Foster recently posted..Three Lies about Lactofermentation That Might Be Affecting Your Health
I’m open to what you are saying but you’ve not provided any proof and it isn’t 100% compelling, to be honest. You haven’t give any evidence/proof for what you are saying. I love to know better then do better but I need evidence.
Erin, this is just one post in a very long series. If you look below the post, you’ll see a ‘Related Posts’ section. Lots of research and info in those posts, and there are many more lined up in this series that I haven’t released yet. I’ve got two posts a week for the next six weeks and I’m still writing. This series will run for months before I’m done, and the vast majority of the posts cite research, studies and historical sources.
KerryAnn Foster recently posted..Gluten and Dairy-Free Traditional Foods eCourse Q&A
I was reading more on the Pickl-It website and I see pictures of “foam/mold/yeast” growing on the pickles and the Beet Kvass. So I’m confused how this is better than a mason jar with a plastic cover screwed on tightly. http://www.pickl-it.com/faq/576/there-s-frothy-foam-on-my-beet-juice-kvass-is-it-spoiled/
Jo Jo, that isn’t mold. What she’s saying there is that people take pics like that and ask her if it is. Mold can’t develop unless oxygen is present, and by the time carbonation sets in well, enough to churn up foam, the oxygen is already been pushed off of the surface of the ferment because CO2 is heavier than oxygen, so the oxygen gets pushed up and out the airlock.
As I note in the article, it’s very rare to see mold grow on a drink ferment or a brined ferment. It’s the self-brining ferments that usually have that happen- things like sauerkraut.
KerryAnn Foster recently posted..Gluten and Dairy-Free Traditional Foods eCourse Q&A
So, I am very confused because somewhere else on the website it says that it is yeast being pushed up from the fruits/veggies? And you are still opening/closing to remove it, so what difference would this be from burping a tightly closed mason jar? Also, I was reading a review that if the air pressure changes on the outside changes, the airlock will let oxygen into the jar.
If you are fermenting with a mason jar with a plastic cover, and pressure is building up inside, wouldn’t you say it is anaerobic and that is why the pressure is building up? I’ve heard of some jars exploding.
I’ve only ever fermented two things so far, the beet kvass turned out well although I didn’t ferment long enough I don’t think, the carrot ginger didn’t but I didn’t have enough brine above it and I also kept opening both jars to smell. Anyway, I’m obviously very new to ferments but I don’t want to be “gimmicked” unnecessarily.
Basically my jar of beet kvass was “whispering” to me because while it was bubbling up oxygen was escaping. I don’t see how it could enter in that environment as well, but what do I know!
When you remove the foam, it’s a one-time thing. By that point, the LABs have built up in enough numbers that they will quickly be able to recover and use up the oxygen you introduce that one time.
No, airlocks using water do not let oxygen in. It is a one-way valve.
A pressure build up doesn’t equate with airtight. It can still allow for a slow release and allow for airflow during other stages of fermentation. But you aren’t considering the conditions after off-gassing finishes or during storage. It must stay airtight all the time and not just during the carbon dioxide off-gassing.
Bubbles are carbon dioxide released by the vegetables. However, bubbles do not define fermentation. Bubbles can be released during salt curing, cellular respiration and lactofermentation, so they aren’t the singular clue that lactofermentation is occurring some websites claim that they are.
KerryAnn Foster recently posted..Three Lies about Lactofermentation That Might Be Affecting Your Health
I *think* I get it now. Thanks for talking me through this. Gonna invest in 3 and when they finally arrive I hope I love them!
When I ferment in a crock or mason jar, I always weigh it down until the brine comes up over the top so that the veggies are completely submerged. I’ve never had a batch go “off”, but I have had mold on the brine above the lid that was exposed to air. Does that mean the batch is bad?
Yes. Those tendrils extend all through the food before the fuzzies show up on top. Yuck, I know. 🙁
KerryAnn Foster recently posted..Gluten and Dairy-Free Traditional Foods eCourse Q&A
Okay, that batch was open. In the mason jars, however, there doesn’t seem to be any air or mold-doesn’t the brine seal out the air?
Sarah, I addressed that issue in this post- https://www.onevibrantmama.com/but-i-thought-it-was-anaerobic-as-long-as-it-was-under-the-brine/ Unfortunately, just being under a brine doesn’t stop the exchange of oxygen that occurs. It’s a long post but it explains it all and I tried to make it easy to understand.
KerryAnn Foster recently posted..But I Thought It Was Anaerobic As Long As It Was Under The Brine?!?
“she’s the one who invented using whey in a ferment …”
I have had this debate before with people claiming in fact, that they didn’t understand Sally Fallon’s obsession with whey and that they found no historical proof of anyone using whey. I strongly disagree. This is predominant in Norse culture. Whey was used because salt was not common nor affordable.
Thank you for the info on these jars and most especially for your in depth research ..so I don’t have to. 🙂 I don’t care how something looks…I want to be sure. Our ancestors might not have had our technology but certainly would’ve been using it were it available.
CJ, I’ve never heard that before! Could you point me to a reference? I’d love to read up on it and I’ll update my information. Most of my reading so far hasn’t been on Northern European fermentation, but on other areas of the world.
KerryAnn Foster recently posted..Gluten and Dairy-Free Traditional Foods eCourse Q&A
Icelanders didn’t have salted butter even as again, no salt. They used the whey from the skyr making for pickling/preserving. Years before Nanna Rognvaldardottir finally had her book published, she did a translation blog online:
http://www.florilegium.org/files/FOOD-BY-REGION/fd-Iceland-msg.html
Since that time, her book was published in 2002. She is not just a cookbook writer…she was raised on a farm in Iceland. It is by far, one of my favorite books.
http://www.amazon.com/Icelandic-Food-Cookery-Nanna-Rognvaldardottir/dp/0781808782?tag=duckduckgo-d-20
From her book….”gathered in large barrels, where it would soon ferment. Fermented whey, syra, was extensively used to preserve food…”
I have no doubt that they used whey, as you claim, but my question is, how could salt not have been common or inexpensive in … Norway, of all places? Surrounded by the sea?
This is my ignorance showing, but it is an honest question.
I am ignorant there as well. I do not own ‘Matarast’…the old text she is translating in part as it is still not available. I believe it is due to cold. The same is true in AK. We were surrounded by salt water…but no salt is collected. Seaweed…just as the Icelandic…but no salt. There are no marshy…beach spots. The glacial runoff makes the water dangerously cold…even more so in summer when it melts into the Fjords. She is in Iceland with the same type of topography. I say Norse above, because 80% of Icelanders are naturally, of Norse descent. That is my guess anyway.
**Interesting note in reference to conversation above:
She does speak of fermenting in open barrels…and mold growing if not covered in a layer of mutton fat to seal the edges or barrel being ‘disturbed’ daily.
To point out the obvious, but it’s technically not an ‘open’ as in aerobic barrel if it’s sealed with fat. That would be anaerobic. That would stop oxygen from getting in as the layer of fat would stop it but would allow CO2 to escape.
Thank you for the info, once the mad work with the eCourse that we launched today is through I’ll get ahold of a copy of the book and dive in.
KerryAnn Foster recently posted..Three Lies about Lactofermentation That Might Be Affecting Your Health
Funny update…I was looking up something in Sally’s NT book last night and lo and behold….right in front of me…she references Nanna’s book when she is instructing how to ‘make’ whey. I had never noticed it before.
😉 I guess I worded it wrong. I meant to show that they also agreed that open barrels would bring about mold…so they used fat to seal the ferments.
You’re right. My apologies. I am incredibly tired today and I mis-read what you wrote.
What about DIY Pickl-It-like jars like this
http://gnowfglins.com/2010/07/16/diy-airlock-fruit-and-veggie-ferments/
Are they effective?
Thank you for sharing your research.
I love Wardeh and I’m friends with a number of bloggers who promote that method, but I’m sorry, it isn’t airtight and it won’t produce a ferment teeming with lactic acid bacteria.
KerryAnn Foster recently posted..What’s in Season- May
Thanks for your quick response KerryAnn. What is your opinion of this product?
http://www.culturesforhealth.com/fermented-vegetable-master.html
I guess I’m just trying to see what less expensive options I have. If there’s one size Pickl-It or cost-effective kit you recommend, which one would it be? Thanks for your time.
If you want a true, airtight seal that will create LABs, your options are the Harsch or the Pickl-It. There isn’t anything less expensive that is truly airtight, the others are aerobic knock-offs of the Pickl-It. I understand that people want to save money and be frugal, I understand as my husband is unemployed and we’re living very tight ourselves. However, you only have two options in this class and the Pickl-It is the less expensive option of the two, by far.
Plastic lids that screw on can never be airtight. You’ll have a constant airflow that will affect the LAB content.
KerryAnn Foster recently posted..What’s in Season- May
Thanks again KerryAnn! I swear this is my last question. What about fido jars? That’s what I use right now. I did look at your Pickl-it FAQ just now, I think I may make the plunge and buy one.
Mamatha, the Pickl-It is made out of a Fido. They’re certified hermetic (airtight) and the airlock prevents the build-up of gasses. Personally, I plan on brewing in a Pickl-It, moving it to the fridge and and once the off-gassing stops after a few weeks, swap out the Pickl-It lid with a plain Fido lid and put it in the fridge for long-term storage. That way, I can continue to use the airlock while keeping my ferments airtight.
KerryAnn Foster recently posted..Three Lies about Lactofermentation That Might Be Affecting Your Health
I use this airlock that will fit any wide mouth mason jar. http://www.homesteadersupply.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=1754
$14.40
The Pickl-Pro isn’t airtight and it contains components I wouldn’t want to come into contact with my food, including a lid that has formaldehyde in it. It has the potential to be toxic. The creator of Pickl-It used a tattler lid at first and then realized through testing it wasn’t airtight and it has all sorts of nasties in the plastic. That’s what led to the creation of the Pickl-It.
I recently opened a box of the tattler lids at a local store and the chemical smell smacked me in the face. No thanks, I don’t want that touching my food!
KerryAnn Foster recently posted..What’s in Season- May
Hi KerryAnn,
What are your thoughts on using canning jars, like Le Parfait or the like, for fermenting? They are the kind that have wire and gaskets.
Thanks.
RT, They’re the wire bail jars, but I can’t find any information on their site if they’re certified as to being lead free and if they’re certified hermetic. So I can’t really make a good comparison between the Le Parfait and the Fido.
KerryAnn Foster recently posted..What’s in Season- May
Makes sense about switching to a plain lid for storage, but I have never heard of Fido—where do you buy Fido lids?
thanks,
Joyce
Joyce, you need to buy the whole jar. That way, you can swap lids and have another Pickl-It to use. The Pickl-It is made from a Fido jar, so the parts are completely interchangeable. I buy the Fidos online.
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KerryAnn, so when my ferment is done in the pickl’it, I could put a regular lid (Fido lid) on it to put it in the fridge or do they still need the little airlock? I have never heard of Fido before.
Cory, I use the airlock until the off-gassing stops then I switch to a regular Fido lid.
KerryAnn Foster recently posted..Salt and Lacto-Fermentation
In your opinion, would a hermetic jar be an acceptable alternative to the pickle it, if it were lead free? I have several different brands, the Le Parfait is just one of them.
RT, If you’re doing something that doesn’t off-gas a lot, then you might be ok. But you run the real risk of exploding the jar with the ferments that really off-gas a lot.
KerryAnn Foster recently posted..Magnesium OIl Update
Hi KerryAnn
Thank you for the invaluable information you have provided in this series. As a fermentation geek as well as someone who is trying to heal digestive issues with fermented foods I really appreciate it. I already have two pickl-its and really like them. I got them because I did find that I could not do a long ferment using the mason jar method. I get how the pickl-it jar is like the Harsch crock – just lighter and less expensive (which is important).
I would like to echo others and ask that you provide some references or books where you are gathering this information. It’s so much different than what most of us have learned from Sandor Katz. More than anyone else Sandor got people fermenting because he made it so approachable and doable. I think the strong reaction that you are getting is because many of us learned that fermentation was this easy (almost fool proof) form of preservation. Now, it seems so much more complicated (and a little overwhelming to know your are doing it “right.”). I also just got Sandor’s new book and he offers an extensive overview of fermentation. I would like to compare your posts against Sandor’s research.
Thanks so much!
Angela, if you scroll up, you’ll see the articles in this series under ‘Related Posts.’ They have references. Also, read The Handbook of Functionally Fermented Foods. It’s an excellent resource but a used copy runs about $150. You can read some of it on Google Books but it is considered a main reference piece. Many more articles are coming in the series, I’m doing it in small pieces to keep from overwhelming people. Many of the studies I reference are available online from Pub Med and other resources so you don’t have to pay for them.
But, honestly, any chemist will explain to you that you can’t do fermentation in a vessel that allows oxygen in. Otherwise, it’s cellular respiration and you won’t turn out a fermented product that only contains anaerobic microbes- that is what is needed for long-term preservation. It’s very basic science and can be found in college-level textbooks. Ask any professional who makes wine if just a little bit of air is acceptable and they’ll scoff at you and tell you that’s a great way to ruin a batch. My Dad did fermentation for a living.
I have not yet received Sandor’s book so I can’t make any comments on the content.
KerryAnn Foster recently posted..Salt and Lacto-Fermentation
I’m really trying to keep an open mind, but I’m still having trouble with these things
-it just seems to me that traditional societies, even with animal skins, would have had an extremely difficult time creating a seal any tighter than a screw-on lid
– I can’t see any reason that a very tiny amount of air theoretically able to come in at the top of the jar *after* all expansion is done (because air is definitely going to be on the way out until then, and it would seem fermentation is happening all that time) would necessarily be able to permeate anything but the very top layer of the ferment.
– On that note, isn’t yogurt a lactic acid ferment? My homemade yogurt is most definitely not just salt-cured milk. I use ball jars, and sometimes don’t even put the lid on! Sometimes I just leave a bowl of quick-sterilized milk on the counter for a day or so with yogurt mixed in and voila! a whole bowl of yogurt appears! (Didn’t yogurt originate with milk being stored in animal (gut or bladder? can’t remember) bags during travel? Not airtight)
I do not like arguing and don’t want to argue. I want to learn. I want to do it right for my family. I’m just having trouble reconciling these thoughts & observations with what you’re saying here about the necessity for an absolute total deprivation of air.
Many societies buried their ferments. Animal skins can be made airtight, some traditional societies continue to do it today. I’ll be posting about it soon.
This coming Friday’s post will show that the air coming in is detrimental due to diffusion and will answer the total deprivation of air issue.
Salt curing doesn’t refer to dairy, only vegetables and I’ve never used salt-curing in reference to a dairy ferment. If you read the section on mold again, you’ll see salt-curing is always mentioned beside ‘veggies’ and not dairy or water kefir. Not that kefirs can’t mold, but it is a lot less common than vegetables.
If you leave that yogurt open all the time, it will mold.
KerryAnn Foster recently posted..Salt and Lacto-Fermentation
Thanks for your time, KerryAnn, and I will certainly be looking for that post when it comes up.
My question about the yogurt, more specifically, is that I am fermenting it with no lid. Air is getting in. Yet it is making yogurt. I put it in the fridge at that point, and it does not ever mold, although it’s always eaten within a week. Actually, it kind of develops a hard cap as the cream rises to the top and gets dried out.
So if milk is able to ferment with air flow, *is it not possible* that vegetables could? (I know they won’t always; I’ve had many variants on “success” depending on how careful I am.)
It takes longer than a week for yogurt to mold. No, air will not stop the process of yogurt making, but it certainly does influence the final composition of bacteria and their numbers. Specifically, it reduces their numbers, and high probiotic counts are the reason we’re making ferments in the first place so it’s counterproductive to do them in ways that aren’t airtight.
If you’ve had many variations on success, I think you’ve answered your own question. 😉 Batches made in airtight containers come out consistent from batch to batch, season to season.
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So are you saying that what when we buy store yogurt, we are not getting any beneficial bacteria? Or just not as much as we could? I thought the whole point was that yogurt had a bunch of great bacteria. Also, why not just buy probiotic supplements and add those to foods? Then we could get as much as we wanted, without worrying about how good the ferment is, right? I really do not have a lot of first-hand experience with fermentation, so I am very eager to hear your thoughts and continue reading this series. Thanks for all the hard work you do.
Oh, also — is lactic acid bacteria just one specific type of probiotic? Or does it change based on the food that is being fermented?
Suzanne, some studies have been done that show store-bought yogurts have their numbers diminish over time due to oxygen exposure coming through the plastic. Due to that, I’ve gone to just making my own and storing it carefully to minimize the loss.
Let me dig those up again and I’ll get a post out on it when i can.
Probiotic supplements have different bacterial profiles than foods and will effect the final outcome.
There are around 500 species of lactic acid bacteria. Which ones you get depends on what’s on the veggies you’re working with.
KerryAnn Foster recently posted..But I Thought It Was Anaerobic As Long As It Was Under The Brine?!?
Thank you for raising these issues KerryAnn. Can I ask what you think about the fuzz on the top of fermented dairy cultures such as kefir?
From what I have read, fuzz on the top is a bad sign. Sorry.
KerryAnn Foster recently posted..Salt and Lacto-Fermentation
I have to disagree KerryAnn. I am a Certified GAPS Practitioner and many of my clients use the mason jar method. As long as it’s done right and the ferment is kept under water there isn’t a problem with this method and these last a very long time. You might want to look at the research this woman did with testing LABS on different ferment jars. http://www.nourishingtreasures.com/index.php/2012/07/03/sauerkraut-survivor-final-report/ I like my Pickl-its and use them most of the time but have used mason jars in the past with no problem keeping them for a year or more. If these were that terrible the GAPS clients would be reacting badly to them in mason jars and I haven’t seen that other than once when the client kept opening the jar while it was on the counter because she wanted to keep smelling it paranoid that it would go bad. Of course she got mold in it. They have to leave these out for a week or so and sometimes longer if the house is cool so that the lactic bacteria can grow strong enough before putting them in the fridge. I have a Harsch crock and I have pretty much stopped using it. I am on GAPS myself and cannot tolerate any hint of mold. I’ve had to through the last 3 of my Harsch crock ferments out because there was a small mold scum on the top.
Margo, there are many people who are not healing on mason jar ferments or who become even sicker on them. I have met many since I began this series. I didn’t heal and I wasn’t able to go off of digestive enzyme and probiotic supplementation despite eating a lot of mason jar ferments until I switched to a Harsch crock. If there truly wasn’t a difference, I should have been able to discontinue the digestive enzymes anytime I was consuming large amounts of a mason jar ferment and I was unable to. Many other people have reported the same. I have since discovered why that is and if you read the whole series, you will see everything is referenced. The series is on-going.
Fermentation is not anaerobic as long as it stays under the brine, I explained the science here- https://www.onevibrantmama.com/but-i-thought-it-was-anaerobic-as-long-as-it-was-under-the-brine/ The presence of any type of LABs does not show that an a ferment is anaerobic as there are multiple types of LABs that can survive in oxygen. https://www.onevibrantmama.com/fermentation-friday-on-bifidus-and-oxygen/ As a GAPS practitioner, you should be familiar with bifidus since it is in BioKult in large amounts. Bifidus only occurs in truly anaerobic ferments as the link above shows since they are very oxygen sensitive. Dr. McBride has endorsed the Pickl-It.
Finally, I believe those of us who were unable to heal on mason jar ferments alone should have a voice and these people need to know that this might be that puzzle piece. Our voices deserve to be heard.
I have just discovered your website and I’m excited reading the things I see here. Thank you! I have read a lot on the fermenting in the past few months and decided to try it, with mason jars and salt. Two small tries were terrible, one got moldy and the other tasted like overly salted veg’s. I threw them both out. I don’t know if I’ll ever be able to afford the correct equipment as I’m retired and expenses keep going up and up. But, at least I know I won’t waste food and time trying to use a mason jar, and wonder if it’s fit to eat! Thanks Again!
I have a question – what about using recaps on the mason jar? Would that work?
Not my website – just something I found on-line.
Thanks
http://www.farmcurious.com/recap-fermenting-set/
Kerry, plastic warps under the pressure of fermentation gasses. I don’t recommend anything made of plastic for that reason.
And another question just occurred to me, sorry. If you’re getting into the jar every day to get a little out, when it is done fermenting and in the fridge, wouldn’t you just be letting a whole lot of oxygen in and therefore wouldn’t any airlock top be defeated?
I’m a tax accountant by trade and it’s late and I’m tired and I do apologize because I do NOT have any science background. But I’m trying to learn 🙂